Hi all,
My name is Leonard and I am the Director of the Yahoo! Groups team. There has been a lot of discussion about the test we are running with the Related Groups content in emails. We are listening to your thoughts and wanted to update you on some of our current thinking. But first, some clarification about the feature.
The Related Groups feature is a test. In a test, our goal is to learn whether the feature is useful for Yahoo! Groups users. If the feature is useful, we would want to invest more into it. If we find it is not useful, we would want to remove it or improve it. So what are the results of the test so far? Well, it is still too early to get definitive results, however the current direction of the data shows that members are joining many more groups than ever before. With that said, let’s discuss some of the feedback we have heard:
- Is anyone listening to my feedback? Yes, we are reading your messages and comments. However, if you want a direct line to us about this feature, we have provided a choice in the Groups Help area to submit issues you are seeing with the Related Groups feature It is particularly important to let us know if you are seeing a specific recommendation that is a problem for you, and why it is a problem, so that we can look into addressing the issue. Please only submit Related Groups commentary, as this goes to the product team and not customer service and so we are not staffed to respond to inquires not related to this feature via this link.
- The name of the feature “Related Groups”. We received a number of proposals for different names for this feature. We definitely want users to understand what this list is. For this reason, we showed users how many common members existed between groups. We are trying to be as transparent as possible about how this works, so people can make an informed decision. If we find a name that makes everyone happy we would love to update the feature with it.
- Concerns about privacy. We require a minimum number of common members between groups before we would show a related group. However, use the feedback form we mentioned above if you are seeing an issue.
- Logic of the results. Prior to this feature, members within groups would sometimes ask others for recommendations, but the process was awkward. In this test, we tried to come up with a simpler way for members to identify groups they might also be interested in. Developing the best suggestions for groups is a never-ending process, and we are continuing to explore ways to improve this process. We’ll continue to track the results of this test (as well as your feedback), as our goal is to provide the Groups community with the best possible experience. This includes looking for ways to suggest groups with small memberships and making sure that the recommendations made are to healthy communities.
- Ability to opt-out. While we don’t have a tool on the website that allows you to opt out of this test, we definitely intend to provide such a feature in the future. Based on the results of the test, we’ll develop a roadmap for these changes.
Leonard
haa
Can’t help wondering if Yahoo’s latest test has anything to do with the following news release.
Also, can’t help wondering if Yahoo and Google are joining forces to combat this Grouply thing, or if Grouply is the way for handling the combining of the two?
Time will tell.
http://www.efluxmedia.com/news_Yahoo_Fi…
Yahoo! Finally Says Yes To Google’s OpenSocial Platform
“Yahoo agreed to join rival Google’s OpenSocial platform, which aims at building an infrastructure for the social web, as Google described it. Through the OpenSocial, platform, developers will be able to create applications for social-networking sites. The platform was launched last November, and MySpace is already a member.”
There is an update from Jami – please read and comment at:
http://www.ygroupsblog.com/blog/2008/03/25/related-groups-feature-test-results/#comment-2517
I absolutely hate this feature. I opted out of being listed in the directory
so I would not have to be bothered with this. You are forcing it on my anyway.
I can’t say I am too happy with Yahoo right now. Hopefully you will listed
and know I am not the only one. It seems everytime you “improve” you service
it causes more problems than before. Why can’t you just leave it alone.
You know, if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.
RS makes a sound point. I’ve taken polls of members in my groups and over 95% are against this. It’s not just mods against it. So let’s see some statistics.
It takes me very little time to communicate to you. Why do we wait so long for any communication back? The level of anger and frustration merely grows without communication. The world doesn’t go away, and one doesn’t become invisible, when one puts one’s head in the sand.
I can see how a list of related groups can be helpful for folks searching for more/other groups specific to their interests. However, I’m irked that my group is being invaded with these lists. We have had certain groups listed that are contradictory to what my group is all about. A list showing up as ‘recommended’ on the pages of my group has certain implications that it is condoned by the group asdministrators. Ludicrious!
Perhaps it would be better to present this information on the individuals’ My Groups page. This way the service is rendered, but the security of individual groups is preserved.
There’s just got to be a vbetter way.
George
it will be nice to have updates about these tests
we all wonder what you will decide
Nubia
I work my own job, yet I find the time daily to catch up on what is happening on the comment boards and can even make the time for a short message. You folks work at the place itself, and while I know you are reading, and not much can be said too frequently, a weekly update or regularly scheduled communication would be a good thing. One thing I have learned is that in absence of information, people tend to assume the worst. I’ve also learned any sort of change can be difficult for people to adjust to. Here’s a situation where you made a change, without much communication. So, surprise, double whammy on us–change (negative as far as I can tell for the mods), and minimal communication. Not much of a wonder that we might might feel a little like mushrooms at this point.
So (poke poke):
Hows that data tracking going? How many people who applied to join groups were rejected by the mods? How many were kicked back out with in the week? How many blindly joined a group cluttered with spam e-mails or that has had no activity in years? What is the minimum number of members in common it takes to have your group become listed? What’s the ETA on that Opt out control? How soon will this testing be stopped in favor of a better method?
These questions and more we would like to get answered please. Thanks in advance.
This is the second time I am writing, with no response from Yahoo as to when the “opt out feature” will be available. I have completely redirected all group emails (and there are still hundreds) to an email list I created from Active Group Members. It’ll be one week tomorrow since I allowed any posts, which thanks to Yahoo, have my biggest competitor’s link smack in the middle of every post, to go out to my group. The Email List is actually working pretty well, Yahoo, and that is 261 members that haven’t seen the Yahoo homepage in almost a week. Get the picture? I’ve haven’t gotten one complaint, and in fact many group members have said they like it better.
What is lacking, with what I hope is a temporary fix until Yahoo’s opt out button is available, is the fact that all of the posts look like they are coming from me. I’ve solved that to a degree by putting the name of the sender in the subject line. It’s not perfect, but it’s keeping the group active while we all hold our breath waiting for Yahoo to release their promised “opt out” feature.
This entire “related groups fiasco” is even more outrageous when you think about the fact that on every homepage there is a “directory” link, which, when people click on takes them to the “related” directory which lists every group there is. So Yahoo’s comments about “helping people find related groups” is just ridiculous.
Leonard,
How are you? It’s been so long since we’ve heard from you that I’m concerned you may have come down with the flu or something. Perhaps one of your minions could let us know where to send Get Well cards. And, if it’s not too much trouble, perhaps someone at Yahoo! Groups could respond to the concerns that have been voiced regarding this new “feature.” “Let’s keep talking” requires communication from both sides.
deg
K,
There are a lot of ways to make it available to those who want to see it without it appearing to be an advertisement and without it appearing to be endorsed by the group whose email you are reading.
Making just the link available in the email would serve the stated purpose (although it would still be unwelcome by many group owners) without actually displaying competing groups in each email.
Making the link available in the search results would also serve the stated purpose.
Still, I think the stated purpose is just cover for Yahoo! to force something upon us which no one really wants or needs.
When is someone at yahoops going to tell us what they are going to do? It should be obvious to anyone that the so-called test has been given a resounding thumbs down.
Marty, are you saying why not just have a link to all those groups in the directory that are listed in a similar way? That way you’re not suggesting any particular group, which is fair. In a situation like that the competition is just one of a hundred or more groups and nobody is suggesting one group over another. It gives new and smaller groups an equal chance with the larger ones.
If you are listening to our feedback, then please fix the ongoing problem with group emails going in our bulk/spam folders.
I absolutely hate this related group feature! Please take it off or do like google groups does and make it an option if the owner wants it on or not!
You really should hire a visionary such as RS.
Look at his blog for a series of design concepts that would carry Yahoo! Groups capabilities and ease of use light years ahead of this Related Groups feature you are shoving down our throats:
http://cybervirulent.blogspot.com/2008/03/yg-conceptmain-page.html
One way to make it somewhat an “Opt-In” capability, at least at the member level, would be to make the Related Groups just a link. At least that way there isn’t an unwanted list staring at every reader. Only those looking for similar groups would use it.
It still isn’t the perfect solution without controls since it still would list competitors.
From recent comments, it appears that Adult groups are being recommended where they aren’t welcome.
ADULT GROUPS SHOULD NOT BE PART OF ANY IMPLEMENTATION!! Even groups flagged as “Adult” may not want any part of anything related to porn. The only way to avoid it is to omit Adult groups from recommendations. I don’t think they are included in search results and they shouldn’t be included in Related Groups either.
In any case: ADULT GROUPS MUST NOT BE RECOMMENDED TO NON-ADULT GROUPS! EVER!
I run a support group and was shocked last night when one of our members and his wife informed me of this. They were utterly astounded at some of the groups that were suggested in their daily digest! I have ran a very clean group for 8 years now, I do not allow links in posts, I do not allow links to ‘adult XX groups’ on profiles and I do not allow links to XX groups to be posted in our links section. With one fell swoop you have managed to undo what it has taken me 8 years of hard work to accomplish!
The 1800 members of my group are diverse and free to join any groups they wish, but Yahoo’s way of pushing these groups on other unsuspecting members is unacceptable. We have over 60,000 clean, supportive, informative and SPAM free posts in our group. What took my member mentioned above 3 years to accomplish in helping his wife come to grips with his situation, Yahoo undid in a flash by having these links shown to her.
Now it is clear to me why I have had a flood of ‘mr winky’ shots on profiles of others that are trying to join my group! Thanks for the extra work, as if I don’t have enough to do checking out the legitimate members that want to join, now I have to sift through the trash to get to them!
I am a moderator and owner for a number of Yahoo Groups.
First, I want to thank Yahoo for providing the Yahoo Groups. It’s a great service and has meant alot to our members. The opportunity for people to be connected through the Yahoo Groups is very worthwhile. Thank you very much for providing them for us and for being transparent about your changes and communicating your plans.
We’d prefer to either opt out of the “related groups” feature test or to be allowed to opt out of this via a moderator control, should Yahoo decide to keep this feature. Some of the related sites that are recommended are really unrelated to our group and some are offensive. This isn’t Yahoo’s fault I know, it’s just how the beta test is going and how the software is working.
Thank you for the opportunity to provide feedback on your new feature,
Rebecca
Dear Moderators and Yahoo India Team,
Here are my suggestions for New feature recommendation introduce recently
I am Hassan Ali You all are well aware of me we were at Moderators Union at Taj Residencey Bangalore, I am Owner and Moderator of Two Group Hum-Our-Tum and Shayariworld
This new feature is really not good and moderators can misuse this feature to a great extend by spamming the other small groups and add links to the mails of small moderated groups which is giving excellent service to members and which give 100% Guarantee against spam and safe guard the interest of members. Example we are against pornography,Virus mails, Spamming mails and groups to great extend.
They simply edit the mails as there is no copy right guarantee as many people copy and paste mails from other groups they received and they try to misused this feature to promote their groups.
The following suggestions i can give you
1) We are against spam mails and links of advertising which will encourage if this feature come in use and it is against group rules of my group and most of the groups who accept rules as deadline for functioning of their group
2. the links added by this new recommendation feature will enable some group to post Pornography and Nude photos in these links which really hurt the interest of members members join our group as we guarantee 100% safety from pornography and Adult photos which is not allowed and not at all suitable and yahoo team is also against such thing some owners of Big group list in entertainment and they just want to attract members by such thing this is really against the self respect of woman. and children who get attracted by such photos is really unmoral and this bring bad thoughts in their minds against women such thing will make them thing women in wrong way.
4. this new recommendation feature will only advertise the biggest groups
who advertise in small groups to promote their groups by images in small groups and Small groups need promotion yahoo is promoting bigger groups who are misusing the feature and spammed other small groups with pornography material, Virus hidden in photos and links and is a threat to great extend to interest of members I advice Yahoo should promote good small groups which is giving excellent service and safeguard interest of members
5. the links added as recommandation in my and all other group will spammed my group and other small groups they should not advertise in small groups and spammed with those links
6) What i suggest and feel that you should give possibility of each owner to turn off this feature for the interest of members of the group when member dont like advertising in the mails with those links.
7) Yahoo should have better search group by activity or interest this can be introduce to make it better search for group for which people serch to join the community
I thanks All the moderators to share their views and suggestions like Nubia did.
Thanks & Regards
Hassan Ali
Groups Owner and Moderator
Shayariworld and Hum-Our-Tum Group
Hyderabad India
Mobile 9885290563.
Good point about “recommends”, Steve & Karen.
http://www.ygroupsblog.com/blog/2008/03/19/update-related-groups-feature-test/#comment-2326
http://www.ygroupsblog.com/blog/2008/03/19/update-related-groups-feature-test/#comment-2340
How about an Amazon-like “Members Who Joined This Group Also Joined”
Karen, I think you got my point about ownerless groups backwards. I don’t want to see them recommended, and for that reason I like RS’ Opt-in to have your group promoted in other groups. But I do think members of ownerless groups would particularly benefit from seeing links to other groups, hence I oppose giving moderators a true Opt-in for recommendations placed on their group’s messages.
This related groups feature is absolutely horrible. I’ve got my biggest competitor’s link smack in the middle of my group. I refused to advertise for that group to my members. I’ve stopped allowing posts through to my group, and have all of the active members on an “email list” I created. We’re posting that way until Yahoo comes up with an opt out button. It’s not enough to take your group out of the directory…I read somewhere that taking your group out of the directory stops your groups links from being put in other groups posts, but still doesn’t stop the “related groups” links in your group.
Yahoo, when will the “opt out button” be available? Soon I hope, because I am not putting posts back through my group until it is. The Email List is actually working pretty well…you’d better hurry with that opt out option, cuz my members won’t want to go back to the posts through the group at all.
I am truly shocked that Yahoo would put a feature like this in without an opt out button available. Your team obviously has no clue what so ever how competitive these groups can be.
Hurry up with that opt out option.
Thanks,
Tracy
This is my 2nd time writing to you.
I wish you would stop this feature, as I have had several
“New Applicants” ….these applicants had no clue what my group was about, or that they need IM to join, of course they did not have the program, they
just could not follow any of the rules to join my group.
Horrible.
Please, let us opt out…PLEASE!!!!
Thanks
Billie
Well said Karen. I totally agree with you. Opting in instead of out will keep the dead groups dead. Not artificially inflate their numbers because someone tries to join them from the so called related groups links. Some of them might not have moderated entry to join or moderated first posts. If you have opt in instead those that truly want this new “feature” can have at it.
Your interesting take on this that “I would think it is precisely the members of ownerless or otherwise poorly run groups that most need to see the recommendations” is a bit hard to swallow. Some of these groups have owners that have been gone a long time and can’t even let a new member in. And those virtually dead groups I’ve seen advertised by Yahoo really are not going to suddenly become alive with new members, from what I’ve seen. And “Yahoo also recommends” does suggest that Yahoo knows something about the group. Call it what it is and only what it is–that members of that particular group also belong to another particular group. But “related” or even worse “recommends” is wrong. Yahoo can’t attest to either.
Jan-
Thanks! Good point too! Part of my thinking is also that the Yahoo Groups Beta had the option of adding content to the group’s home page, such as embedding video, etc. User feedback told the YG B team that we liked this, and it seemed to be a direction they were going long term. On an active group with a mod who frequently makes use of this and modifies the page, it creates a dynamic (as opposed to static) page for users to interact with and creates good reasons to go see new things, and thus use the online interface. The RSS Feed module is a particularly good reason to visit often. More time on the dynamic YG site means ideas stimulated, and more possible impulses to search for more groups. In theory anyway.
Right now, you’re 100% right (and its true for me that I generally use my groups via e-mail only). The issue for me is that the home page content is generally static, so there’s no motivation to go see what’s new. So, YG is about e-mail distribution primarily. That may change slightly with the new modules, who knows. I know I’ll be sourcing content for my groups like mad. All the more reason to make the searching that does get done more effective. “A competing service” offers automatic notifications to members as an option when you make a change on one of the pages. This would potentially add more mail, but the users could quickly and easily get alerted to the increased, non-email content by this means, encouraging the use of the Yahoo ID/YG portals (and corresponding increase in ad serves).
RS – Your suggestions read well to me – the only thing I think would not suit yahoo’s (possible) purpose is that many members of groups treat them as email lists instead and rarely if ever sign into yahoo – especially if they receive their group messages at a non yahoo address. I do sign in and read most of my groups at each website so it would work very well for me.
And now I’ve had more ideas. Finally got to posting them on the net. I’d very curious to hear what fellow YG mods think of these ideas. They were based on what I’d like to see as an ideal version of YG. There’s more to come, but it is all related to this feature because of the idea of search being improved and spontaneous content surfacing, which people seem to favor over getting the doo-doo in our e-mails with every post. I started a blog to post my ideas in, hopefully it makes sense. It’s kind of long, but it starts here:
http://cybervirulent.blogspot.com/2008/03/yg-conceptmain-page.html
I welcome your feedback too. If I’m off in wonderland, I should know that sooner rather than later. This just sounded good to me. The search and rating system is a bit complex, I hope I explained it well enough. Enjoy.
Shal said “I would suggest something simple like “Yahoo also recommends …” “; RS suggested a box ““I would like Yahoo to recommend groups to me that are similar to this one”. ”
In my book, ‘recommend’ means “I’ve been, seen, done and liked this – and you might like it, too”. There is nothing in the selection by a Yahoo robot of groups that have members in common that is anything to do with recommending.
By definition, the related group feature has no idea whatsoever what the ‘related’ group is like; whether it’s even ‘live’.
I agree mostly with the opt-in crowd, but we’ve got to find a better – if less punchy – title for the feature. “Some members of this group are also members of the following groups: you may care to check them out” suggests itself, not least because it’s honest and true.
Shalf: It was just a reference to a Star Wars quote. =) Still following the whole Evil Leonard theme. I’m a goofy goober like that.
I’m with Andy. If you ‘d just tell us what you really need and explain your goals, we’ll help you come up with ideas that won’t drive us to move our groups to Google.
I wonder if you and the rest at Yahoo understand about those who use groups. For most of us, out time is finite and what will happen is exactly as Sue at 9:03 explained. Group owners want members who participate in groups. Groups die without that. And when members join too many groups they haven’t the time to read nor participate in them. That causes the opposite of what you want, I think, because then the groups die. And when groups die, you’ve got no income.
I don’t get the bit about hate, but your message full of suggestions was nicely said, and some good ideas too.
http://www.ygroupsblog.com/blog/2008/03/19/update-related-groups-feature-test/#comment-2273
Leonard
There is an almost unanimous outcry against this idea. The way it has been implemented has created a total backlash. Your post has done nothing to assuage the strength of feeling against the recommendation feature. There are some very well thought out posts on this and the original thread. Posts by people who “know” Yahoo Groups.
If you continue down this road the backlash will not stop. This is not some concerted effort, just spontaneous and total agreement on this not helping groups, members or owners.
I would ask what problem were you trying to solve? My guess is that this is revenue led. Is someone putting pressure on you to generate more revenue, probably from advertising.
If this is the case then I have a great suggestion for you. Ask for advice from the people on this blog. Ask for help on the main moderator forums. Form a special focus group. And then don’t ignore the results, they will be absolute gems that could double your revenue.
Work with us, not against us.